Talk: Cleave

Cause of cleave

Since this statement was added, I think the nature of the cause of cleave ought be addressed.

"In certain situations, a kill does not have to occur in order to trigger a cleave. For example, a character dealt enough damage to kill a badly wounded target. Before the blow is landed, the target heals itself such that the blow will no longer kill it - a cleave will occur nonetheless."

There is not anything false about the above, but it just doesn't go far enough. Even on creatures with no DR whatsoever that do not heal themselves, cleave can become a final blow instead of blow resulting from a final blow (this seems especially the case when the target has a lot of hit points). For this express reason I do not think that the circumstance taken into consideration by cleave is the same as the damage roll versus hit points (or maybe cleave performs a different damage roll), but have been unable to track down any formulaic breakdown of what causes a cleave versus what does not. If others wish to shed some light on this. WhiZard 10:08, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

• I've found out the following.

1. A cleave can only happen if the killing blow is the first attack, critical or otherwise, of a flurry.
2. If you have multiple attacks in a flurry and one of the non-first attacks scores a critical hit, a cleave occurs, even if such critical hits are made on an already dead target.
3. Successful defensive rolls also cause cleaves to occur.

While it doesn't explain why the killing cleave occurs in the example provided by WhiZard, hopefully it provides some insight.

220.255.7.242 03:28, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Does this mean damage is calculated when a successful attack roll is calculated? Does it then, immediately after, check damage (that has not been dealt yet) compared with the target's hit points for cleave activation? Then, once the hit has landed, does it check to see if the cleave was activated without checking to see if the target is dead? Micteu 19:12, January 26, 2011 (UTC)

Cleave bug

"Characters with many attacks per round (e.g. dual-kama-wielding monks) seem to trigger cleave improperly, executing the cleave on the current target. This most often happens on a target that would be killed by the next attack in the flurry (turning the cleave into the killing blow)."

I experienced this bug even with normal character with 16bab tsu 4attacks + haste. My weapon was scythe, the cleave is triggered improperly about in 50% cases. That character is monk however. Will report if I found this happen for non-monks as well. ShaDoOoW 04:38, September 17, 2010 (UTC)

• My understanding is that in this context, "many attacks per round" means "at least four". It is a bit of an overstatement, and the example does go to an extreme, but I guess that is because it occurs more often as you get more attacks per round. In my experience, this anomaly can happen whenever there is more than one attack in the flurry in which the killing blow lands. Not that I have specifically tested it though; I am just going on what I've noticed in the combat logs. (Speaking of which, I can confirm that it happens for non-monks because I have seen it happen for my PCs and I have never played a monk.) --The Krit 15:03, September 17, 2010 (UTC)

• When I looked at this again, I noticed something that might have been misread. The abbreviation used is "e.g." ("exempli gratia"—"for example"), not "i.e." ("id est"—"that is"). If the abbreviation was "i.e.", then the statement would be just about dual-kama-wielding monks, but since it is "e.g.", these monks are only an example of characters this can happen to. (So there is no reason to think that being a monk has any direct relevance.) These abbreviations are used wrongly at times (I fix them when I notice them), but in this case, it is the correct abbreviation. --The Krit 05:21, October 10, 2010 (UTC)

Cleave occurring at 5AB less than my main attack

I'm a level 3 Monk with two attacks a round (thanks to Flurry of Blows [FoB]). My AB on my FoB attacks is 5. My AB on Cleave attacks is 0. I thought (and my understanding from the article) is that the Cleave attacks should also be at 5AB, if not 7AB. I am using the Extended Edition (EE). Was Cleave nerfed in EE? Or am I misunderstanding something? -- HolyGuardian80 (talk) 04:54, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

• I guess the answer is that the extra attack from Flurry of Blows counts as a free attack, much as the Cleave extra attack. I believe attacks of opportunity also fall in the same category. There was one round when I got an extra attack from an Attack of Opportunity (AoO), a Cleave extra attack and a FoB extra attack. One was at 6AB (same as the first attack of the round), another at 1AB (5 less) and finally the last one was at -4AB (10 less). So, in conclusion, Cleave attacks are not automatically at full AB. They fall into the category of "free attacks," along with AoO and FoB attacks. The first (and only the first) free attack is at full AB. The subsequent attacks are each at 5AB less than the previous free attack. This may be documented elsewhere in the wiki but I don't see any mention of this in this Cleave article.

Edit: I see that it's explained here. Should I delete my comments? -- HolyGuardian80 (talk) 20:24, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

• Probably leave the comments. They might be useful in the future. However, it's up to you. The general rule is that it is acceptable to delete your own comments as long as no one has replied to them (and in this specific case, I give my permission to delete this reply if you want to delete your comments). --The Krit (talk) 01:49, 26 October 2021 (UTC)