Talk:Dungeon Master

Suggestions for editing

The current article reads as a collection of subjective opinions about dungeon masters, and could use a good deal of editing. It may also benefit by narrowing its scope by focusing descriptions on what a DM is in the context of multiplayer neverwinter nights and saving any comparisons to the roles of DM's in face to face, so-called "pen and paper" for a later parapgraph in the article.Unsubscribed from email feedback (talk) 19:04, February 11, 2019 (UTC)

• I disagree. While there are subjective bits, I find the vast majority of the article to consist of facts, not opinions. There is probably room for improvement, but not to the scale you are suggesting. As for the pencil-and-paper comparison, that is in the final paragraph of the introductory section. It cannot go later than that without becoming its own section, and it does not have enough content to warrant being its own section.

I see you have some more specific suggestions after this. I'll take some time to consider them before replying to them. --The Krit (talk) 22:21, February 11, 2019 (UTC)

Focus

"A Dungeon Master (DM) is a player who orchestrates a campaign, able to control nearly every aspect of the game other than the other players. The role of a DM is supportive, making the game more enjoyable and dynamic for the other players. Towards this goal, a DM can control (or even possess) non-player characters, create objects, and otherwise manipulate the virtual reality in which the game is played. "

A DM is generally not regarded as a player and does not necessarily orchestrate a campaign. There is much more that you cannot control using the DM client besides the player. The game engine, combat rules, scripting and design (as admitted later in the article.)

Propose change to:

In Neverwinter Nights, a Dungeon Master (DM) acts a referee and/or administrator in a multiplayer setting. A DM may choose to adopt the role of storyteller, arbiter, observer, enforcer or advisor to assist players in making gameplay more enjoyable. To facilitate these roles, there are a number of available tools allowing the dungeon master to control non-player characters, create objects, relocate both player and non-player characters and manipulate appearances and visual effects.Unsubscribed from email feedback (talk) 19:04, February 11, 2019 (UTC)

• A DM is a player. If you choose to disregard that fact, that's your shortcoming. As for orchestrating a campaign, you seem to be hung up on a single idea of what that means. Think more liberally -- if the DM makes a change using DM powers, then something is being orchestrated. Call it the campaign for simplicity.

Yes, if you make a list of things a DM can and cannot control, you end up with a good number of things in the latter list. However, many of these are technicalities, as the DM can circumvent them through cleverness. As an introductory explanation of a DM, I'd still go with controlling nearly every aspect of the game. Clarifications about what falls outside "nearly every" can be (and are) made later in the article. --The Krit (talk) 19:26, March 7, 2019 (UTC)

• Thought about this a bit more: it would be accurate to say that the word "player" is often used in contexts that exclude DMs, but that by itself does not exclude "player" from including DMs in other contexts. In the context of this article, "player" means someone playing Neverwinter Nights, and that includes DMs. --The Krit (talk) 19:58, March 7, 2019 (UTC)

• Hmm... some of the arguments you made against the existing text could be turned on your proposed replacement. A DM is not required to act as a referee or administrator. In fact, I would guess that many DMs prefer that there be no need for someone to fill one of those roles. --The Krit (talk) 19:34, March 7, 2019 (UTC)

• How does a DM manipulate appearances and visual effects? I thought that was something that fell under the realm of scripting, not the DM client. (I know there are "DM widgets" that allow such things, but those are only restricted to DMs if the scripter so chooses.) --The Krit (talk) 19:44, March 7, 2019 (UTC)

Value Judgements

The following sentences seem to represent opinions and value judgements seem more appropriate for a forum than a wiki article.

"In one sense, the DM is near-omnipotent, but in another, the DM depends on player characters, since without players to enjoy it, there is no adventure. A good DM is both master of the world and servant to the players, to varying degrees. " 

Propose, strike above sentence from article as it is unnecessary.

"A DM can also be a power-hungry dictator seeking to limit what players can accomplish."

Propose, strike above sentence. If a description of what it means to be a power hungry dictator seems out of place, then introducing it without qualifiers is also out of place. It is also unnecessary.

"The powers of a DM are great, and so are the variances of how different people use them."

Value judgement in first clause, entire paragraph is a soap box oratory. I propose the following change:

"A DM can also be a power-hungry dictator seeking to limit what players can accomplish. The powers of a DM are great, and so are the variances of how different people use them. A key to a successful DM is a matching of DM style to player wants. A DM who makes the game rather unfun for other players will soon be left with no players, while successful DMs often have waiting lists of players eager to join their campaigns. "

Change to:

The ability to manipulate the game environment to the extent that the dmclient allows can interfere with the sense of autonomy and the flow of free play for players in a DM's multiplayer world. Maintaining an enjoyable environment for play will require a sense of fairness and communication between the dungeon master and players. Unsubscribed from email feedback (talk) 19:04, February 11, 2019 (UTC)

• "The powers of a DM are great" is not a value judgement. This might be a question of knowing your definitions. Looking up great in wiktionary, adjective definition 1 ("relatively large") is what is meant, and that is not a value judgement. Definitions 7 ("of significant importance") or 15 ("excellent") would be value judgements, but those definitions are not suggested by the context. --The Krit (talk) 20:00, March 8, 2019 (UTC)

• One of these arguments is a meaningless tautology: "If [X] seems out of place, then introducing [X] without qualifiers is also out of place." It's meaningless because it's a tautology (almost of the form "If X then X"), and it's meaningless because its premise is false. --The Krit (talk) 20:07, March 8, 2019 (UTC)

DM abilities

The article could use brief descriptions of DM abilities, or a reference to the online manual may suffice. In particular, group actions may have a place in the DM article as opposed to or in addition to the DM Client article. Group actions appear on page 170 of the original NWN manual which is page 86 of NWN_OnlineManual.pdf. Unsubscribed from email feedback (talk) 19:20, February 11, 2019 (UTC)

• Explaining how to do things in the DM client is probably better suited for the DM client article. The article already links to it, but it might still be a good candidate for a "see also" section. --The Krit (talk) 22:35, February 11, 2019 (UTC)

• My current thinking is that I would hold off on the "see also" idea until the DM client article has more nuts-and-bolts information about how to do things. Make it a better resource before directing people to it. --The Krit (talk) 21:10, March 8, 2019 (UTC)