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Brick Thrower, Welcome!

Hello, and welcome to NWNWiki. Thank you for your contributions.

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I hope you enjoy editing here! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see Help:Contents, add a question to NWNWiki talk:Community portal or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! -- Austicke 13:16, 8 Oct 2005 (PDT)

CategoriesEdit

Brick Thrower, to add an article to a category, just add the following to the bottom of the article itself (not the category page): [[Category:Category name]]. Thanks for your contributions. -- Austicke 17:08, 8 Oct 2005 (PDT)

Again, Brick Thrower, please categorize articles you add. See [[Talk:Hc on cl enter]]. -- Austicke 12:51, 15 Oct 2005 (PDT) (Dead link removed. --The Krit 22:06, 24 January 2008 (UTC))

HcR Edit

Hey BT! I'm deep into documenting HcR all by myself by parsing through every script in the system (ugh!) and I've created a separate wiki in which I will post what I come up with as I go along. Wanna help? It's at HcR Docs Wiki. Given our previous discussions, I thought you might be interested. Klingon Mage 13:54, 9 Oct 2005 (PDT)

Why not use this website? You think it needs its own domain? Wouldn't it be helpful to integrate it with all the existing articles we have here? -- Austicke 14:24, 9 Oct 2005 (PDT)

Well, we're going to be talking about an EXTENSIVE set of documentation. I figure probably 30-40 wiki pages just to establish a rough outline, and it's of a single, community created add on system. I didn't think piling all of that in here would necessarily be welcome. However, if you want the material here I will be more than happy to post it as I get it written and confirm accuracy.  :) Klingon Mage 14:49, 9 Oct 2005 (PDT)

It's very much welcome here. I'm using just a tiny fraction of my web host capacity, so there's no concern there. You can put everything under [[:Category:HCR]], and I wouldn't mind seeing HCR notes in existing articles -- just as long that it's clearly stated as HCR custom content. You're welcome to document it in a separate wiki if that works better for you, but I wanted to make it clear that we welcome all custom content in NWNWiki. -- Austicke 15:13, 9 Oct 2005 (PDT) (De-wikified old (now dead) link. --The Krit 21:49, 1 April 2008 (UTC))

I like HCR but I think we will always be playing catch-up after the HCR Gods. You can see from this thread that there is considerable resistance from the current owners. I love a challenge but I also know when it is uphill: the risk to reward ratio is very high with regards to HCR. While I do think it is more important that the code live on and evolve, without the permission of the current owners I believe that we will just be creating a lot of busy work for ourselves that will never catch up. In the end, with the current HCR leadership, I see the project dying a slow death. Just take a look at the amount of posts on the HCR boards... it is dropping off trememdously and they really don't have any interest in acquiring new members, just protecting the current establishment status quo (moderators, coders, etc.). I am essentially abandoning HCR except in my own modules... since I can't contribute to the HCR set, for all the reasons mentioned in their threads.

I also think that we should continue using NWNWiki. It's very cool. It would be great if we could even post the code in the NWNWiki! I am more willing to contribute to the next generation of HCR code for NWN2. It would really be great to have the community post and edit source code in this NWNWiki format. This is very similar to the discussion here on NWNWiki regarding the NWNLexicon project... I would love to see that migrated to NWNWiki: the turnaround from the NWNLexicon keyholders is always slow and a wiki will solve that problem. NWNWike would be able to take NWNLexicon to the next level also.

What do you guys think about creating our own set of source code here in NWNWiki? "NWNWiki Rule Set". Binary on the HCR boards doesn't seem to be forthcoming with his v2 work site yet but also may be interested...he likes CVS and the methodology behind it even though he refused to vote on the HCR/SourceForge issue. The only problem I can see now is the lack of the ability to store binary files on NWNWiki. For example, even if we have great code, some of the NWN functionality comes from objects that are created and released in the base module set, such as the HCR helper wand...you can't create that on the fly with only scripting....without having a template to use, the object has to be stored as some sort of importable module or ERF object. Can NWNWiki help us there?

Austicke, you are well positioned for NWN2 and it's flood of interest behind the release! I hope I can keep contributing.

Brick Thrower 21:00, 9 Oct 2005 (PDT)

I'm not so sure I agree with you regarding the impossibility of documenting HcR and here's why: Up until now, the only documentation they have had has been:

  • Help files/Howto's (always out of date)
  • Comments in scripts (helpful, but also often out of date/ambiguous/hieroglyphics)

I'm taking a different approach. I'm creating a database in the form of a tree diagram using Freemind. From that, I will post entries to some sort of wiki (most likely will lay out the docs on my own wiki then crosspost here once the data is verified to be accurate). If someone changes something, it's a simple matter in this scenario to alter the individual doc accordingly, without the need to rewrite, republish, or redistribute docs. All that would be needed would be to establish that "these docs are accurate as of version abcbr549 whatever". In short, the docs are going to grow the same way the code did. As for creating a fork of the HcR project, I've got two things to say about that:

  • It's been done once, created a MAJOR bruhaha on the forums as a massive "he said she said you stole my code you dirty rat" sort of thing erupted in the scripting forums. This was between arch and some other person who used to be involved and wasn't anymore.
  • Is it really neccessary? I'd be interested in learning what sort of contributions you wish to add, as well as what about the current system you feel is broken. (that's not a challenge, I really don't know enough about the system yet and am genuinely interested in hearing your thoughts).

If you and/or someone else decide to fork the HcR, I'll be happy to help document THAT too. I just am not sold on the idea that it's necessary, yet. Klingon Mage 05:55, 10 Oct 2005 (PDT)


Good points, but let me ask you this: Why doesn't the documentation get updated? I believe that it is because of the same slow turnaround process that clogs the input pipe where I put my script donations.

I don't know if you are a programmer or not... In the programming language Java,they use the /** **/ notation to denote documentation. That is, comments embedded in the code that are purposefully MEANT to be extracted for documentation purposes. The same documentation purposes as you desire. Link to example This same sort of documentation problem exists with HCR. The problem I am having with their code submission process is the same problem you will experience with the HCR documentation process. Java takes the approach that the code *is* the documentation. While you are coding it, you document it. It's very powerful. I am going to help start a NWNWiki Core Rules Set here, if Austicke agrees to the provisions. I am willing to donate all the modified HCR code I have made in my module, where it applies to a Generic Module. I will post rules to follow for contributors, such as everything must be included in switches. Although it is inherited from the HCR code (it is a derivative), publishing my module code specifically as a donation, without the purpose of making money, on an unaffiliated site, along with the public domain purpose, will clearly show the purpose is not stealing nor defamation. Here is the original HCR (c) notice A parser can be used to filter out the comments in the code if we follow the /** comment **/ paradigm to yield extensive, up to date documentation that is *always* in synch with the code (to the best of the programmers who wrote it, anyhow! :) ). I think this concept of a Wiki code base will yield much faster turn around than a group of Gods with Keys could. The Wiki could provide everyone access not only to the documentation but also the code. Brick Thrower 00:55, 11 Oct 2005 (PDT)


I agree with you, in principle. First I want to address the comment documentation problem. Most of the scripts I am manually parsing HAVE inline documentation. Trouble is, not all of it is up to date. Fortunately, the nature of NWScript is such that it's pretty easy to figure out what is going on WITHOUT the docs.

Now, forking HcR, pro and con:

PRO

  • Clean up the code base, removing deprecated and deleted references
  • Implement DRY principle to codebase (repetition is RIFE in HcR)
  • Document the Code
  • Maintain the code as a true community product

CON

  • Is anyone in the community, other than us, really interested?
  • Is there anything specifically wrong with HcR that we can fix with our own codebase?
  • Bad feelings/blood between those involved in our codebase and those involved/loyal to HcR.

I'm inclined to agree with your ideas, tbh, but only if there is real community interest in the idea. But to do it correctly, I am truly not in favor of the idea of just taking HcR's codebase and forking it into a new project (a perfectly legitimate thing to do, given that all material created with and for NWN by anyone other than Bioware is open source, according to the EULA, so questions of Public Domain and Copyright don't obtain, so long as we don't take their code and claim we wrote it). One thing I am discovering in the HcR code as I parse and document it is that there are numerous repetitive actions. I think that four different scripts check to see if a player is a DM when trying to use the DM Helper Wand, plus there is code for four or five different kinds of helper wand, plus the onering system that replaces all those wands. The code is obviously the result of several individuals building over the work of others over time and, like a burning candle, layers get deposited on layers in a haphazard fashion.

So in short, yes. Let's start our own codebase. From scratch. Something like 575.345 GP worth from Klingon Mage 09:15, 11 Oct 2005 (PDT)


  • BT: Contact me via email (ClingonKelt@aim.com or turbo100110@yahoo.com), ICQ: 64309542, AOL IM: ClingonKelt, or Yahoo IM: turbo100110 at your convenience. I have received the post forwards you sent from the HcR forums and would like to chat directly with you about the issue. I work all evening saturday and all DAY sunday, off monday. Will be here for another two hours or so before I leave for work. Turning on the IM's now. -Klingon Mage 09:43, 15 Oct 2005 (PDT)

Pen and paperEdit

Hehe, classic! -- Austicke 03:24, 19 Oct 2005 (PDT)

Wiki Rules Edit

BT: Speaking as one who knows most of the series of events firsthand, and who in large part agrees with your points of view, I still feel that I need to speak up about this.

I feel strongly that your new ruleset idea will gain a lot more respect and interest if you promote it on it's own merits. At this stage in the game, is is really necessary to continue to beat the HcR horse to death? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to simple accept that the status quo is what it is and let the matter go? Promote your codebase on it's own merits, as an "alternative to HCR" and let it go at that. The curious can look at both and take their own decisions, eh?

The continued negative PR against the "HcR Gods", however justified it may be, isn't going to change the minds of anyone already loyal to that system, IMHO. Those who have not taken a choice, however, might well be put off YOUR idea by the vitriol and negativity.

Just my humble opinion. For myself, I am finished feuding and will have no further part in it. Klingon Mage 06:33, 22 Oct 2005 (PDT)

  • I have no particular desire to do any coding for pointless reasons. So I won't be participating in any attempts at rulesets or documentation. --Defunc7 07:30, 22 Oct 2005 (PDT)
  • BT: Added a modified stub template specifically for NRS idea proposals. Use {{NRS_wanted}} where you would normally use {{stub}}. Klingon Mage 06:56, 19 Dec 2005 (PST)

Manual of styleEdit

BT, please review the NWNWiki:Manual of style and follow it -- especially when it comes to capitilization of article and section names. I know we haven't used the same styles since the beginning, but we're trying to get there. New articles should certainly conform. Thanks, buddy. -- Austicke 22:09, 21 Dec 2005 (PST)

When adding new articles, please make sure they include a category. Thanks. -- Alec Usticke 08:13, 28 December 2005 (PST)

Brick Thrower, you're killing me!

Again, please do not create articles with the second and subsequent words capitalized unless it's a proper noun. If you're confused about this, please review NWNWiki:Manual of style#Article names. Also, again, please put new articles in an category.

I have changed the following incorrectly named articles. Please update any links.

Thank you. -- Alec Usticke 16:36, 4 January 2006 (PST)

You're confusing me, BT. You recreated those four articles just so you could mark them for deletion. I had deleted them yesterday. -- Alec Usticke 14:16, 5 January 2006 (PST)

  • Mmmm. Very interesting. I did not actually go through a creation sequence with those articles. After I was done editing the new articles, I went up to the URL bar and went to the old articles, the ones With All Capital Letters, and saw that the article was there, just without text. Then I clicked on the What Links Here links. After all the What Links Here was edited, I clicked on the EDIT button of the Improperly Cased Articles to add the DELETE template to those articles. Very interesting.
  • Okay, I did some research. I found out that the Apache rewrite engine has an undocumented wiki page that shows all the articles a user of your choice has deleted. From there, I can "restore" those deletions without your intervention. Does that mean that I can get back any article you have deleted? What about those articles that you seem not to have wanted anyone to know about?
    • [1]
    • [2]
    • [3]
      • Lol, BT. You can go to a page for any term in the world. That's how you create new articles. -- Alec Usticke 15:47, 5 January 2006 (PST)
        • No, using the URL method, I do not click a SAVE PAGE button. I thought the page already existed and needed deleting when it didn't. After I got a page back, I clicked EDIT, added the DELETE template, and then clicked SAVE PAGE. MediaWiki then created the page and added my edit in two separate moves for one action. Now I know and I won't try to undelete any more of your dirty laundry. :) // Brick Thrower 20:02, 5 January 2006 (PST)
          • Right. As soon as you save an edit to a non-existant page, it creates a new page. -- Alec Usticke 20:04, 5 January 2006 (PST)
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